How do you lose an alignment so quickly?

robcarync

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
I have had 3 alignments since January... Mid Feb I got my alignment all in the green. I have not really been offroading since then...but do drive on about a 1.5 mile stretch of gravel road during my daily commute. This area can be quite bumpy and washboard like. There are also a few muddy ruts that I "accidentally" drive through to start my day.

I had noticed I was getting bad wear on the outer edge of my tires. I consulted my print out of the last alignment...and noticed they had given me 0.4* of positive camber...this seemed excessive, so I took it back to get it re-aligned yesterday (specifying the zero camber spec for lifted Xterras; Firestone aligned it again for free under warranty for previous alignment...2nd free one they gave me). They came back and said they got it all in the green with 0 camber, but I didn't get a print out (I forgot to specify that I wanted one). What they did say shocked me: The toe angle was the culprit, and was far out of the green.

Now...alignments can be lost by all sorts of things...so let us start with worn components. Mid-Jan I replaced tie rod adjusters, tie rod ends, upper ball joints, and idler arm bushings. Center link is probably worn some, but it doesn't look too bad. I don't suspect I have a parts wear issue this time around, though it was the reason for my first re-alignment.

I began to suspect my gravel road morning commute detour. The common answer is rough roads, pot holes, hitting curbs, etc will throw an alignment off.

My question is...how exactly? The tie rod adjusters are solid links. The rod ends have jamb nuts that really prevent them from threading backwards or anything. The idler arm is braced with Bandit4x4 bushings. The steering knuckle isn't flexing here. If parts aren't damaged or bent, how does the toe in angle physically change when they are solid parts holding the knuckle in?

Any thoughts? My guess is the ball joints on the tie rod ends get damaged, allowing extra flex, which means the toe in gets worse. as the tires get pushed inwards more. I was just curious as I was thinking about this today.

Anyway, I have decided to eliminate my gravel road detour to see if my tires will wear a little better after this alignment. We will see what happens
 
rokdaddy

rokdaddy

Wheeling
Founding Member
Location
New Mexico
Adjustment cams on your UCA's could be moving around on you.


-Rok




Edit: I usually mark mine with a white paint marker so I can tell if they get bumped out of whack.
 
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robcarync

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
rokdaddy said:
Adjustment cams on your UCA's could be moving around on you.


-Rok




Edit: I usually mark mine with a white paint marker so I can tell if they get bumped out of whack.
Click to expand...

Thought about doing that...I guess that can affect toe in as well. I will clean em up and mark em so I can re-adjust.
 
Intender

Intender

Wheeling
Location
Lewisville NC
to figure it out I would start by putting it on a rack where the truck cant move around too much and the front is off the ground. I thought all my parts were solid after replacing almost everything back in september except for the centerlink. But a few off road trips (yes i beat my truck a bit harder than some) and everything is worn out again. upper ball joint on the drivers side was loose, uca bushings on the drivers side are wallowed out. one of my tie rod adjusters was tweaked just a tiny bit, and a tie rod end was bent. the sloppy centerlink caused almost all of it. Thing is after replacing the centerlink and putting on new outer tie rod ends and adjusters and bandit bushings everything seems really tight to me and I couldnt get any play at all when shaking it around, but I took it to my buddies shop to get the alignment done and they started pushing and pulling on things with a pry bar and it was bad, really bad. You saw how bad mine was back at the URE trip. All of that slop gets transferred to other places and just wears things out and will break things eventually. The tie rod side of my centerlink was raising up well over an inch when I would push it, and I have grooves in my frame as a reminder. Hopefully the new parts will fix the issues I was having, but it is bad enough that I have already decided that a SAS is going to be in my future at some point. I dont feel I need it to be more capable, but I am just tired of having to replace half my steering system and get an alignment every time I go off road.

I bet firestone isnt checking for anything to be worn out, they just throw it on the rack and adjust it to green and give it back to you, but if even 1 piece of that steering system or front suspension is worn out and has any play in it, your front end will be out of alignment pretty much before they back it off the rack. and continuing to drive it will only wear out the weak link causing it to progressively get worse and worse, and break stuff when your off road.
 
D

drbandkgb

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
robcarync said:
Interesting...never had a shop, chains or mom and pop alignment shops, ever mark my bolts. Always thought it was a good idea though but never bothered to actually do it
Click to expand...

Yep I can show you the marks.. I had a issue with a local mom and pop doing them.. They would give me a BS sheet that showed me all greens..
and much like you I started seeing outside tire wear.. (This was before UCAs) When I did the UCAs my cam bolts were frozen and there is no way they ever
worked on the camber... I will now only take my Xterras to the local 4wheelparts for realignment, I know the people and they will let me watch and learn.

I do not trust firestone and their buy one for life bs... Its a scam of sorts...

Good luck with your issues
 
robcarync

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
All good info...though I conceptually knew all of this...but just reaffirms some of my suspicions.

I was thinking that my tie rod ends (Duralast from AutoZone) would be suspect...and possibly my center link. I was thinking that any toe in will cause the tires to want to point towards the center just a little bit...from the road pushing them inwards. The second you "re-load" the tires...IE drive on them and have forces acting on them...that alignment which was done 'static' will be all over the place as all of the slop and play will shift around on you. I am guessing there is just a difference in the "measurement" as it prints out and the geometry of the actual tires when being driven, which is accelerated by slop and play.

SAS would be awesome for durability, but I just dropped and Lokked the front diff...I may just go with a grass roots center link next time I get tires

The Firestone I went to wouldn't do an alignment for life since it was lifted. I did get 2 other free ones out of them, though, that they covered under warranty. First time I got an alignment, they said the tie rods were binding and ends were worn (they were), and that they couldn't align it properly. I went home and rebuilt everything but the center link and took it back 2 weeks later, and they were nice enough to warranty it and re-align it for free. It drove great, but two months later (now), I have outer tire wear...so I took it back and told them to do it again, but keep camber at ZERO.

They have been great as far as customer service and letting me bug them with questions. I had to get a state inspection, and they let me change a brake light bulb in the parking lot instead of paying 20 bucks for them to replace it...LOL...but off road alignments are definitely out of their normal area of 'expertise'.

Maybe I will just wear these all terrains to hell and use it as an excuse for a grass roots center link and 33s

:kewl:
 
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K

knightrider

Bought an X
Location
San Diego, CA
Whenever I go to get my truck aligned, I give them all the specs I want everything adjusted to, I don't much care for colored dots telling me that they are on the ragged edge of being in spec. I have had some troubles with Firestone actually aligning it to my specs but they have come to find out that if they do it to what I want, I leave happy and they don't have to redo it over and over :)

Although Firestone is my backup, I go to a local chain for real alignments from some old school guys that use gauges and chalk and will do any specs you want no problem, they've done all the alignments on my racecars with great results.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 
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robcarync

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
Well...just as a follow up...

I replaced my steering. Moog center link, all Moog ends. Slop disappeared. My "duralast" ends had ripped boots and were pretty loose. The center link ball joint at the pitman arm was LOOSEY GOOSEY like WHOAH. As in I am happy the ball joint didn't pop out of the socket while driving.

I will eventually upgrade to grassroots, but money is tight right now with honeymoon in another week or so.

Hopefully Moog center link will last a year and I will do it all again with a grass roots.
 
Kirk_R

Kirk_R

First Fill-Up (of many)
Location
Keller TX
IN reading this thread, I find myself in a similar situation. I have replaced the Centerlink last year with one from Napa (I figured the original one lasted for 13 years I could get quite a bit out of this OEM type replacement). I was wrong. The local shop I use (who installed the centerlink last year) just told me it's bad again. I'm getting lots of popping sounds from the front end when maneuvering with odd angles (like my driveway).

What should I look for? What Centerlink should I buy? I do off road a 2-4 times a year (not much). My guess is the current centerlink has 5-6k miles and 1-2 off road trips. I'm concerned there is something else wrong?

We can move this to a new thread if needed...

Thanks
 
robcarync

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
Kirk_R said:
IN reading this thread, I find myself in a similar situation. I have replaced the Centerlink last year with one from Napa (I figured the original one lasted for 13 years I could get quite a bit out of this OEM type replacement). I was wrong. The local shop I use (who installed the centerlink last year) just told me it's bad again. I'm getting lots of popping sounds from the front end when maneuvering with odd angles (like my driveway).

What should I look for? What Centerlink should I buy? I do off road a 2-4 times a year (not much). My guess is the current centerlink has 5-6k miles and 1-2 off road trips. I'm concerned there is something else wrong?

We can move this to a new thread if needed...

Thanks
Click to expand...

Well...I replaced my tie rod ends and center link with MOOGS, and thought the same thing about the center link.

I have reached the conclusion that I just need to upgrade to grassroots 4x4 center link. Problem is, with any lift, the tie rods are at a steeper angle. This pushes the center link up at an angle, and flexes it. Since the stock center link attaches with 2 ball joints to the idler and pitman arm, the tie rods push the center link in the direction that the ball joints flex. This makes it impossible for the tie rods to maintain a good alignment. How can they maintain an alignment, when the part that they are connected too flexes and moves all around.

Before I invest in another set of tires, I am going to be going grassroots and modifying the pitman and idler arm to make it double shear. Ultra strong
 
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