Recommendations?

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
So I've had a little (aka Army) experience with ARs...long-term, I'd like to own one personally. I do contract security work, and have an additional side job as an armed bouncer at a Latin club in Nashville. I'm not here to debate the necessity in a long gun, but an encounter over the summer with the Mexican Mafia and Kurdish Pride (shooting at me and my partner) have put me in the market for one. I've seen cars with AKs in the trunks, and been handed a Class III carry permit by one of these punks as his ID to get in the club. My partner is former Army Spec Forces and served as a sniper...I've seen his paperwork to prove it, too. He and I both are looking for REAL guns. (you know the saying, "A hand gun is only good for getting you to a REAL gun.")




Of course, with that comes money.


I saw an ad for Academy Sports yesterday showing a Mossberg .223 for $250 over the holiday...most ARs I've seen have been WELL over $1000, and the one I really want is $1900 (Red Jacket Katana). I have no intention of purchasing that, but how in the holy Hades is that only $250???




I have no need for a shorter stock, even being a chick. I'm 5'9, so wing span is not an issue. What are the brands to look at, and brands to stay away from? What would the advantages be of building my own from a skeleton?
 

drbandkgb

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Seems like Im seeing AR's for 700 range... I could be off.. I know RacerXXL is the man of guns in these parts
 

tommyboy

Need Bigger Tires
Founding Member
Location
Nashville
WOW! for $250 I would have guessed it was a .22 but you saw .223. I would get a 5.56 nato and you can shoot 5.56 and .223. Some .223 won't shoot 5.56. Do you have a link to this Mossberg?

Like Dave said you can get a decent AR for $700

If you are going to keep it in your truck, Make sure to keep it out of sight but you also have to keep it unloaded, including magazines, unless you have a carry permit. If you have/get your TN carry permit you can keep it Loaded just can not have one in the chamber.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
Serious stuff...it's been 7 years since I've fired one. I shouldered a buddy's, but that's the closest I've come to one in a while. Not an investment I want to make on a .22, but still. I couldn't believe my eyes.


I have to re-qual every 2 years for my security license. That's the timeframe I'm looking at making a purchase. I won't be doing that gig forever, but I'm also one who prepares for WWIII. I haven't put it in my X yet, but I even carry rappelling gear.
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
Lots of questions to be answered in order to give you direction. The more you can answer the better we can define what you are looking for.

Is this a duty weapon?

If it is a duty weapon does the department have any restrictions on features the rifle can and can't have?

When you say you do not need a short stock are you opposed to a collapsible stock or do you prefer the A1, A2 style stock? (A1, A2 think standard M16 not an M4)

Any thoughts on what configuration? Again think M16 vs M4 type configurations.

Will the rifle need to have an optic? Not necessarily magnified but also think red dot or holographic sight like an Aimpoint or Eotech.

Will the rifle need a white light? (Weapon light/flashlight)

If you can answer the above we can start to whittle down what it is you are really looking for.

As far as quality brands to start with ask 10 different shooters get 10 different answers. My top brands of complete AR 15 rifles in no particular order

Colt
Bushmaster
Rock River
Daniel Defense
Noveske
Smith & Wesson
Sabre
Bravo Company
LWRC
DoubleStar
DPMS

Off to eat some Turkey I'll check back later. ;)
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
Lots of questions to be answered in order to give you direction. The more you can answer the better we can define what you are looking for.

Is this a duty weapon?

If it is a duty weapon does the department have any restrictions on features the rifle can and can't have?

When you say you do not need a short stock are you opposed to a collapsible stock or do you prefer the A1, A2 style stock? (A1, A2 think standard M16 not an M4)

Any thoughts on what configuration? Again think M16 vs M4 type configurations.

Will the rifle need to have an optic? Not necessarily magnified but also think red dot or holographic sight like an Aimpoint or Eotech.

Will the rifle need a white light? (Weapon light/flashlight)

If you can answer the above we can start to whittle down what it is you are really looking for.

As far as quality brands to start with ask 10 different shooters get 10 different answers. My top brands of complete AR 15 rifles in no particular order

Colt
Bushmaster
Rock River
Daniel Defense
Noveske
Smith & Wesson
Sabre
Bravo Company
LWRC
DoubleStar
DPMS

Off to eat some Turkey I'll check back later. ;)



It would be a duty weapon, yes. I work for a private company that has no restrictions, other than you must be qualified/certified to carry said weapon.

I prefer the collapsable stock, mostly because of body armor getting in the way of a longer stock. My shotgun is a youth model, if that helps. I've just seen females with really short arms struggle with long rifles- I just wanted to clarify that I wouldn't have that problem. LoL.


Prefer more of the M4 style. I've shot an H&K MP5 and wasn't really a fan, as I'd prefer a smaller, more long-range round vs a 9mm.

Holographic sights would be nice, along with a rail for a tac light.




I'm a big fan of S&W handguns, but I've never shot or handled one, AFAIK.
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
It would be a duty weapon, yes. I work for a private company that has no restrictions, other than you must be qualified/certified to carry said weapon.

I prefer the collapsable stock, mostly because of body armor getting in the way of a longer stock. My shotgun is a youth model, if that helps. I've just seen females with really short arms struggle with long rifles- I just wanted to clarify that I wouldn't have that problem. LoL.


Prefer more of the M4 style. I've shot an H&K MP5 and wasn't really a fan, as I'd prefer a smaller, more long-range round vs a 9mm.

Holographic sights would be nice, along with a rail for a tac light.




I'm a big fan of S&W handguns, but I've never shot or handled one, AFAIK.

Ok so pretty specific list should make it much easier. To me you are looking for a 16" carbine, 6 position collapsible stock, maybe a quad rail...maybe not, a red dot sight of some sort, a weapon light, and a decent patrol sling.

For a duty weapon I would be looking for a complete rifle so 16" with a collapsible stock is not an issue as everyone makes multiple models in that configuration. Things to look at to narrow it down some and decisions you will have to make.

1) Gas System - 16" carbines are going to be available with two different gas systems. They will be available with either a carbine length gas system or a mid length gas system. The length of the gas system is determined by how far up the barrel the gas hole is drilled in the barrel. A carbine length system is the shortest at 7.5" and the mid length is well the one in the middle at 9.5" and a rifle length system is right around 12".

Gas system length is going to effect a couple of things.
a) First it is going to effect the force available to cycle the action and extract the spent casing from the chamber. It's a long discussion involving
port size, location, dwell time, extractor type, extractor wear, and reliability. Basically in the simplest terms the pressure at the gas port is different
for the two systems as the bullet passes the port. For a carbine it is right around 34,000 psi and for a mid length it's right around 27,000 psi.
Mil-spec M4's come with a carbine system and as I understand it the mid length system was developed to slow cyclic rate by allowing the bolt to
stay in battery longer. It also had the unintended effect of softening the recoil slightly....so slightly that I can barely even notice the difference. Also
due to the fact that there is less pressure in theory there should be less wear and tear on the bolt and the extractor. That being said I have a
Bushmaster 16" carbine with a carbine length gas system that has over 17,000 rounds down the barrel and it is still on the original extractor and bolt
go figure. :p Choose the gas system length you want they should both be fine.

b) Second thing it determines is the sight radius, distance between the front and rear sights, on a rifle with a standard FSB (front sight base). Obviously
the longer the sight radius the more precise the sight picture and as the FSB is installed over the gas port a mid length would have the longer sight
radius. Since you are talking about a rifle with a rail and a red dot sight (RDS) you do not have to utilize a std FSB so again pick the gas system you
want.

2) Barrel Length - You are basically going to have two choices either a 16" barrel with a removable flash hider or a 14.5" barrel with a permanently attached
flash hider. The reason for that is BATF rules say that any rifle with a barrel length of less then 16" is a short barreled rifle and requires a lot of paperwork,
fingerprints, and a one time $200 tax stamp for you to own. How they get around that with a 14.5" barrel is by permanently attaching the flash hider to the barrel. If you feel that the 1.5" overall shorter barrel is worth it order a 14.5" but to me I like to be able to change the flash hider so I run a 16" barrel.

3) Barrel Twist - You may find as many as 3 different choices...those being 1/7 twist, 1/8 twist, and 1/9 twist. 1/8 will be the least common and 1/9 being the most common and 1/7 falling in the middle. I could type two pages of info about twist rate and just confuse the crap of of everybody but I'll try and do it easy and simple. Twist rate indicates the distance the bullet must travel to complete one full revolution, such as 1 turn in 7 inches (1/7 inches). A shorter distance indicates a "faster" twist, meaning that for a given velocity the projectile will be rotating at a higher spin rate. Higher spin rates are needed to stabilize longer bullets and longer bullets tend to be, but not always, the heavier bullets. For a duty weapon I would be looking for the twist rate that will fire accurately the longest/heaviest bullets I can find within reason. Generally this is going to be a 75 or 77 grain OTM type bullet and the only rate that can properly stabilize that size bullet consistently is a 1/7 twist rate. 1/7 will allow you to accurately shoot basically any bullet from 55 grain to 77 grain so anything from a plinking round to a very good self defense round.

4) Iron Sights - Do you want fixed sights or BUIS (back up iron sights). Me on a rifle that has an RDS I prefer fold down BUIS as it gives a nice clean view in the sight picture. I know lots of folks who run the standard FSB and a fixed rear sight and like it so it can work and work very well.

I'm sure there is more but I'm tired of typing. :p Start with that and start to narrow down the field. Be prepared as a duty rifle like the one you are describing is going to easily reach $2000 whether you build it or buy it. I built this one and it came in just under $3000.

16" mid length 1/7 barrel, quad rail, weapon light, sling, RDS, BUIS, and 6 position collapsible stock.
16EA.jpg
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
How do you feel about Red Jacket? One of my Army buddies is from LA and spoke highly of them before they were ever on TV. I was very impressed with the Katana...it's got a lot of Daniel Defense and Bravo Company components.

http://www.redjacketfirearms.com/in...&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6



...and where in N AL are you? I'm on the north side of Birmingham at the moment. Will be headed back up 65 tomorrow afternoon, though.
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
How do you feel about Red Jacket? One of my Army buddies is from LA and spoke highly of them before they were ever on TV. I was very impressed with the Katana...it's got a lot of Daniel Defense and Bravo Company components.

http://www.redjacketfirearms.com/in...&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=6



...and where in N AL are you? I'm on the north side of Birmingham at the moment. Will be headed back up 65 tomorrow afternoon, though.


I'm in Athens right on 65 just short of the TN border.

I think that when it comes to AK's Red Jacket makes a fine weapon. They are not known for there AR work and for $1800 that is pricey for what you are getting. I guarantee you can step into a better quality rifle for less money and have better features and money left over for BUIS and an optic.

Daniel Defense Carbines from $1300 to $1600

depending on the rifle you would still be looking for a sights, sling, a light, and an optic.

Bravo Company EAG Tactical Carbine

On this one it comes with everything but the red dot sight and of all the ones listed if I had to defend my self with an un-tested weapon this would be the one I would snatch up and shoot everytime. Bravo Companies reputation and customer service are second to none and EAG tactical is Larry Vickers so this weapon is well thought out.

Colt Advanced Law Enforcement Carbine
Colt is Colt.... LE6940 hard to beat but still needs a sling, light, and optic.

Smith & Wesson M&P Tactical
Still needs a sling, light, and optic. At this price I think some of the others above are a better buy for what you are getting.

Just some more stuff to look at but given my experience with the above rifles and the experience of those I shoot with I would go with any of these before I went with the Red Jacket. Again they have a stellar reputation with AK's just have not heard a lot about there AR's.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
My local gun shop is selling Palmetto State Armory lowers for $100....any love for PSA?
 
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NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
They've got a sale going on for $79.99, but by the time I pay shipping and the $25 FFL transfer fee, it's the same price.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
I'm reviving this thread because I'm compiling a parts list..I hope to start purchasing/building by Christmas. I even told the wife already, and she's "Whatever," about it, so I'm running with it while I can.



I think I've decided on a PSA lower, carbine gas system with a 16" 1/7 twist barrel. Not sure on the rest of the upper components yet, but that's what I've decided on. I tossed around the gas block for about a month or two, but I feel like the carbine length would be best suited/most versatile.

I want to do this RIGHT, not cheap. It took me a good 2 months to decide on PSA for my lower. I have a friend who swears by them and would put them up against Colt, and I trust his opinion.



So what about upper components? I'm not too concerned about furniture right now, as that could change as the wind blows. Some days I like OD, some days I like all black. Depends on my mood. HA!




Thanks for all your insight so far, Kelly. It's nice having a resource that's relatively familiar vs someone who I REALLY don't know on some anonymous AR forum.
 

Chucktshoes

Bought an X
Location
Memphis, Tn
I just found this thread, are you still compiling a parts list, or have you pretty much figured out what you want? I work part time at a local gun store where I focus on the AR and handguns (I'm a certified armorer for the S&W M&P pistol platform) for duty or CC usage.

I am very happy to find this section of the board. I may not be much into modding my X, but I can mod and swap out parts on my guns all day, every day. :D
 
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NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
Yep! Still compiling. Recommend away, my friend. I have an FFL here that I can get transfers for cheap, so that is saving me a bundle.
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
I'm reviving this thread because I'm compiling a parts list..I hope to start purchasing/building by Christmas. I even told the wife already, and she's "Whatever," about it, so I'm running with it while I can.



I think I've decided on a PSA lower, carbine gas system with a 16" 1/7 twist barrel. Not sure on the rest of the upper components yet, but that's what I've decided on. I tossed around the gas block for about a month or two, but I feel like the carbine length would be best suited/most versatile.

I want to do this RIGHT, not cheap. It took me a good 2 months to decide on PSA for my lower. I have a friend who swears by them and would put them up against Colt, and I trust his opinion.



So what about upper components? I'm not too concerned about furniture right now, as that could change as the wind blows. Some days I like OD, some days I like all black. Depends on my mood. HA!




Thanks for all your insight so far, Kelly. It's nice having a resource that's relatively familiar vs someone who I REALLY don't know on some anonymous AR forum.

Like what? Bolt, bolt carrier, barrel, FSB, gas block...........??
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
Like what? Bolt, bolt carrier, barrel, FSB, gas block...........??

Yes to all the above

Ok I know you landed on 16" barrel 1/7 twist and I'm assuming carbine length gas system. The next question to narrow it down is will the rifle have a rail system to start out or more traditional hand guard setup? Mind you it doesn't have to be std M4 hand guards....it could be something like a Magpul MOE. That will have some effect on barrel selection and definitely on whether it has a gas block or an FSB.

If you currently have a lower you are still going to need the following.

A lower parts kit with trigger (most come with a trigger)
Stock and buffer tube
Buffer and buffer spring
Upper reciever
Charging handle
Forward assist
Dust cover
Bolt carrier and bolt with firing pin
Barrel
Gas tube
FSB or gas block

The items listed in red above are going to be the hardest to obtain as we get closer to the election.....panic buying has begun, yay. :shucks:

Bolt and bolt carrier.....I tend to lean more towards Milspec then all the coated stuff. That being said lots of choices but the ones I would recommend are Bravo Company, Rainier Arms(either the CMT or LMT shown there), or any LMT stuff from Operation Parts. I use the M16 Bolt and carrier from Bravo Company and as you look through those all I'm shocked they are in stock as everybody seems to be out of them.

For the lower parts kit and barrel those three companies should have what you need......for that matter those three should be able to cover it all. On the barrel you just need to make a decision on quad rail or not.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
Stupid question, but besides the lower receiver and the barrel, what else has to go thru FFL? Smart thinking would be to order them together so I only have to pay one transfer fee.
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
Stupid question, but besides the lower receiver and the barrel, what else has to go thru FFL? Smart thinking would be to order them together so I only have to pay one transfer fee.


Only the lower must go through the FFL, all of the other components and parts can ship straight to your door.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
Sweet! I like it. I've got everything in an Excel spreadsheet...so far, I'm up to $500 in stuff, but I have most of the expensive stuff on the list. PSA is running a deal on stock/buffer assembly that I'm going to try to jump on, save me about $60.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
Your fooked now. :D Nice looking kit....Milspec tube as well should be good. You need a hand or anything while your building give me a shout.


Once I get the lower receiver, I'll definitely reach out. Too many small parts to confuse.


...still haven't told Karen I bought it yet. My BIL (the deputy) knows. He's jealous. Said he was going to buy just ONE round of 5.56 and say he started his build. Tehehe.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
I created a build thread for mine....I'm being forced into turning it into a budget build, though.


Help me find a barrel? 16" chrome lined, M4 feed ramp, 1:7 barrel ONLY.
 

jmnielsen

Need Bigger Tires
Location
Lincoln, NE
Ok I'm convinced to start my own build. The lower receiver is all that needs to be handed by someone with an FFL, right? If so that is the first thing I will order, as I would guess it will be the hardest to get. Especially because of the election.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
I've got a pretty good list compiled so far, complete with prices. Check out OperationParts.com, they've actually got stuff in stock. May not be top shelf stuff, but at least it's there.

Now I'm looking for a free floating hand guard that I like. Pretty sure I'm also leaning towards OD fairly heavily.
 

RacerXXL

First Fill-Up (of many)
Founding Member
Location
North Alabama
I created a build thread for mine....I'm being forced into turning it into a budget build, though.


Help me find a barrel? 16" chrome lined, M4 feed ramp, 1:7 barrel ONLY.


http://www.operationparts.com/Daniel_Defense_16_5_56mm_Lightweight_Car_Barrel_p/dd-9082.htm 1 in stock as of 9-6 @ 0100

http://www.operationparts.com/Daniel_Defense_16_5_56mm_Carbine_CHF_Barrel_p/dd-9067.htm 3 in stock as of 9-6 @ 0100

Now both of those are listed as A4 barrel extensions which in Daniel Defense "speak" is the M4 upper receiver.
 

dhyde79

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Amarillo, TX
out of curiosity, why're you set on a 1:7 twist rate, all of my research that I've done has said 1:8 is the "all around" option, as it's not "too fast" for the lightweight rounds like 55gr or lower, but still fast enough for the 70+ gr ones (here again, I've looked at several 77gr ultramatch rounds and they all say 1:8 or 1:7 is fine and will stabilize the round fine), 1:7 is great but, you're dealing with something that almost overstabilizes the round. A military M4 is only 1:9 twist..I'd say a 1:7, 1:8, or even 1:9 *should* be more than adequate (especially considering I was still able to tag 400m targets with a military M4 consistantly)
 

Chucktshoes

Bought an X
Location
Memphis, Tn
Dhyde79, not trying to call you out, but your information is incorrect. The TDP for the M4 calls for a 1/7 twist rate. While a 1/9 is sufficient if you will be primarily shooting the cheap 55gr plinking ammo, 1/8 or 1/7 is preferable for heavier weight rounds.

I do agree with you that a 1/8 is probably the best all around option, in fact I really like the S&W 1/8 5R barrel that they place on their Sport, VTAC II and Magpul Moe rifles.
 
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dhyde79

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Amarillo, TX
I'll stand corrected, the site I was pulling the info from on a glance said the prototypes were the 1:9, when they adopted into service it dropped to the 1:7, but, also worth noting is that the M4A1 is a 14.5" barrel, so, the extra barrel length will help stabilize nicely too. (also worth noting is that military ball ammo M855 is 62gr, and if supermatch 77gr says 1:8 is adequate, I'd say anything you're gonna shoot would be more than happy in a 1:8)

also, I can't check because of firewall restrictions at work, but, I seem to think my DPMS Oracle's stock barrel is a 1:9 @ 16" and I'm throwing 62 and 69 gr ammo accurately at 550m (4 out of 5 rounds on target with an 8" target)
 

jmnielsen

Need Bigger Tires
Location
Lincoln, NE
Soooo I'm having a heck of a time finding bolt carrier assemblies. Found one from PSA for $50, Is that too cheap? Others I looked at we're around or over $100 on operation parts.

Edit: it was just the assembly not the complete group. They are out of stock for all of them. Are they really gonna be that hard to find?
 
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