Steering upgrades to turn and handle 33s

01XterraPhilly

First Fill-Up (of many)
Location
Conshohocken, PA
Ok peeps, I would like to know what upgrades to the steering should be done to turn bigger tires. I have an IAB and a new centerlink by proforged from auto parts warehouse. What else can I get to beef up the steering? Obviously new tie rods/adjusters and a idler arm. Is there anything else? I have new upper ball joints from AC when I got my UCAs. I'm just thinking down the line of when I get 33s. What's your thoughts?
 

Silver dude

Sliders
Founding Member
Stock replacement centerlink is NOT going to cut it in the long-term. A steering system that replaces the centerlink would be best from one of the reputable Nissan 4wd parts places, Total Chaos, Calmini, 4x4parts, etc.

You don't need a new idler arm. You can buy the replacement bushings from a Nissan dealer for $5 to get a like new performance out of it. if you want a upgrade in durability (I'd recommend it) Bandit 4x4 sells upgraded bronze bushings that last far longer. Careful if you buy a new steering system the idler might get tossed or upgraded anyway.

Not being mean or trying to sell parts but the stock centerlink is a flawed design. Once lifted the truck no longer has stock steering geometry and all kinds of pressure gets placed in ways the stock steering was never engineered for. Trust me I thought rich people were just boasting about steering kits. But, after 4 centerlinks in one year I paid the due.
 

Editor X

Test Drive
Location
Holly Srings, NC
I agree with Silver dude. At the very least look into some beefy tie rods. FWIW, I'm still running on mine from TC when we did the long travel conversion back in 2003. They've seen plenty of abuse too. I've never upgraded the guts of the idler arm though and just replace the OEM bushing once in a while...like 3 times so far. Works just fine. I do have the whole King Kong steering system though, but I've been running various flavors of 33x10.5 tires for 12 years with no issues.
 

NismoFire

Titan Swapped / SAS'd
Founding Member
Location
Smyrna, TN
P&P is doing Tie Rods and TREs with Heim joints now, I believe. I know they did a set for Casey but I haven't seen much else on them.
 

01XterraPhilly

First Fill-Up (of many)
Location
Conshohocken, PA
SilverDude it's all good. I don't know anything about steering so I'm not sure what all would be needed. I went with the OEM style centerlink bc I didn't have the money for a grassroots one nor do I have 33s yet. I'm just learning about what eventually will be the case of upgrading. Any information is well received. I just know when it comes time to get 33s I want to be able to not wear out my components as fast
 

bottobro

I'm a pretty girl!
Supporting Member
Location
Long Island NY
I mean I'm still running a complete stock steering system with my 33's, my pump I'm pretty sure is starting to go but i think its also from the caked on mud
 

granitex

Skid Plates
Founding Member
Location
Columbus OH
You can also replace the idler arm with a gutted pitman arm. they are stronger than the idler. and have the same geometry. The rod ends are plenty strong, it is the adjusters that bend. The adjusters bend when the centerlink rotates and gets trapped against the frame.

I like the calmini replacement, The only thing that I wish that they had done differently was put a reverse thread bung in one end of the centerlink to make adjusting toe easier. but it is a very small thing to change but I am glad that i bought it years ago.
 

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
The main components of the steering are tie rods/ends, center link, idler arm, and pitman arm.

Ultimately, the center link and tie rods are probably the weakest part. A stock replacement won't cut it...you will need a grass roots center link and HD tie rod adjusters or a full system.

Last thing to upgrade is idler and pitman arms. As mentioned, you can do a brace and idler arm bushings. You can also do custom arms with a center link.

PP is currently working on pitman arms, idler arms, and center link system for my X right now...still waiting to see what they come up with...but they are in the works for now.

Check on Frogstars threads for his custom double shear arms and modified center links:

http://xterranation.org/showthread.php?4072-Frogstar7055-s-Ivan-build/page8


A
dmittedly, steering systems aren't the sexy and cool mods like a lift and bumpers or sliders...but I am ready to have a normal, good alignment so I can drive my truck like a normal vehicle and not chew up tires.
 
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granitex

Skid Plates
Founding Member
Location
Columbus OH
I should have said gutted steering box not just the pitman arm. Bigger tires wear the bushings in the center link, and the idler. As they wear, it allows the center link to rotate enough to allow contact with the frame. That is what bends the adjusters. You can always ream out the tapers to accept and ton ends, but it is not the ends that fail.
 

01XterraPhilly

First Fill-Up (of many)
Location
Conshohocken, PA
Rob I agree that it's not necessary but I understand it as a necessity. When my engine mount broke I ended up replacing them with the rugged rocks hd mounts. I felt it was necessary for me bc I wanted them to last. With the steering upgrades there really isn't much info, that I could find at least, on what all is needed. There are bits a pieces but not one solid thread on it.

I looked on calmini's site and I saw they have the upgrades steering package but not individual items. I've seen a lot of people run moog but there's just so much out there that makes me even more confused. Then I've seen people run moog inners with another brand outers. Is there a beast mode combination that you can't pass up or what? All the info is great.
 

Jack Stilts

Skid Plates
Location
Michigan
Rob, I disagree with one piece of what you said - steering systems are totally sexy ;)


I have an overkilled steering setup - Total Chaos kit (beefed up centerlink, tie rod assemblies, ilder & pitman arm), new steering gear, and new pump. These were all done as a preventative measure; the only issues I was having previously was a leaking gear box and a squealing pump. With everything replaced, it feels almost too tight when compared to how loose & sloppy it was before. I also have 32" tires, and I don't have to worry about moving them with all this beefiness. Overkill is better than underkill, to me anyway.

You have plenty of options, and of course you can piece it all together. But it was nice for me to know that this kit has everything. It's the same as a suspension lift or anything else - you can do it piece by piece, or get it all in one shot.‎
 

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
Rob, I disagree with one piece of what you said - steering systems are totally sexy ;)

OK...I will agree with you there. I see the sexiness in a steering set up :)


01XterraPhilly: Steering slop and alignment has been my arch nemesis for 2 years now, and I only have 32" all terrains and a 3" suspension lift. I already have new Moog tie rod ends, a new Moog center link, Bandit4x4 idler arm bushings, Total Chaos idler arm brace, and 4x4parts.com HD tie rod adjusters. I still have significant slop in my steering system. As mentioned, I ended up sending my parts to Mac @PPEngineering so he could custom build/modify me a center link, idler, and pitman arm. If you are looking for more detailed info, I will explain to you what I have found and how I reached my decisions.

You really have 2 general options:

1) Upgrade individual stock parts with heavy duty/modified stock parts.

a) Tie rods and ends: The tie rod adjuster is a weak point as far as easy to break and leave you stranded. You can get HD tie rod adjusters from 4x4parts or Calimini. These replace the threaded rod and use stock style tie rod ends/ball joints. Stock style tie rod ends don't really have an "upgrade" or "heavy duty" version. Check out RockAuto and you can get several different brands (I went with Moog). You can potentially run into clearance issues with a modified center link, but that is usually if they have a grease fitting that can clip the frame. PPEngineering and Total Chaos also have a heim joint tie rod that replaces the tie rod adjuster and both tie rod ends, so no more ball joints on the tie rods. Be aware that heim joints may not be street legal.
b) Pitman arm: This arm is on the steering gear box (driver) side of the vehicle. The stock pitman arm is pretty substantial. No real need to upgrade this unless you are modifying it for use with a custom system.
c) Idler arm: The idler arm is on the passenger side frame rail. The stock idler arm is a weak point. You can upgrade the bushings to bronze bushings from Bandit4x4.com. They actually helped my steering feel quite a bit more than I expected. You can also get a bolt on idler arm brace from Total Chaos, 4x4Parts, or Calimini.
d) Center link: The stock center link is a weak point due to the way it attaches to the idler and pitman arms. It has a stud connection and a ball joint. Especially with lifted vehicles, the tie rods and ends are angled upwards, and it will cantilever the arms, and flex the center link, idler arm, and tie rods upwards. You can replace the stock center link with a Grassroots4x4.com center link. They press out the stud and ball joint, and press in a spherical bearing and allow you to through-bolt the center link to the arms. This creates a rigid link with no ball joint slop. You will have to modify your idler and pitman arm by drilling out the attachment point, since the bolt used will be larger diameter than the ball joint stud. When you modify the the center link, the thicker mounts on the idler arm can reduce clearance on the tie rod ends. This is why you see some people run different inners and outers. The outer tie rod end will clear no problem, but the inner has to clear under the frame and above a curved wall in a cross member. If you get an aftermarket tie rod end that has a grease zerk, or a larger ball joint, you may have clearance issues. Most aftermarket tie rod ends should work. From what I have read, Deeza inners will not, but Moog or Duralast from Auto Zone will.

2) Upgrade your entire system with custom components that are designed to work together.


a) Custom/modified set up: If you have fabrication skills, or know someone who does, you can custom build a system or custom modify your stock parts. You can take your old center link and modify it similarly to Grassroots4x4. You can also weld gussets to the idler and pitman arms to double shear them to the center link (wrap around top and bottom of mount). If you modify the stock arm, you can still use bronze bushings and an idler arm brace. If you have skills, you can create one from scratch that has a brace incorporated into the idler arm body. You can go with heim joints if you want to replace your tie rod adjusters and ball joint ends (but be aware they may not be street legal). Once you have the capability to cut metal and stick in back together...the sky is the limit.
b) King Kong / Total Chaos: Total chaos has a complete kit with a custom built (not modified) center link and an idler and pitman arm. It also includes the Total Chaos idler arm brace. I believe you would also need to get the heim joint tie rods to work with their center link. Pricey at $700+ for the kit, especially if you already have money invested in idler arm braces or HD tie rod adjusters.
c) Calimini: They have a complete kit Which completely re-designs the center link, idler, and pitman arms. The center link, AND the tie rods directly connect to the idler and pitman arms. The stock set up has the center link connecting to the arms, and the tie rod ends connecting to the center link. It makes it stick out further which is why the stock set up gets so much cantilever action like a diving board. Not as pricey at only $600, but still a big purchase.



Now, as to how I decided on what I was going to do:

I already had the idler arm bushings, idler arm brace, heavy duty tie rod adjusters (plus trail spares), and new Moog tie rod ends. I wanted to fix the center link and arm connection for good, but wanted to retain the stock style tie rods and ends. After all, they were not causing me trouble anymore.

It basically came down to a Grassroots4x4 center link and keep the arms as is, or Grassroots4x4 center link and modify the arms to wrap around the center link. I was going to go for GR and modify the arms myself...but Mac @PPEngineering saw me b!tching and moaning about my steering and alignment and he offered to do the center link and arms for me. Their steering was still being developed, so I offered to box up my parts and trail spares for cores and ship it all to him so they could work on the development. Ultimately, I wanted to support an active and supporting member of the Xterra community. I could have modified the arms myself... and purchased GR or modified it myself, but I was excited to see their solution to this painful problem.

If I had a completely stock steering system, I would have gone with Total Chaos or Calimini most likely...Or just asked PPEngineering to throw in bushings and a brace and their heim tie rods, etc to complete the kit.
 

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NMTerras

Suspension Lift
Location
New Mexico
Total chaos is, IMHO, the best solution. Rock solid and built to take the abuse of wheeling with bigger tires. I chose it over the calmini and was glad I did. Prior, I had the HD TRAs and an idler arm brace. What that gained for me is extra strength there so it would be my centerlink that failed...Like prior post said, you can do it piecemeal, but in the end if you want it to be better able to withstand the abuse, you're going to end up replacing it all anyway. might as well go with a system designed to work together. Or pull it apart and beef it up yourself, if you've got the fab chops. I did not.
 

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
Total chaos is, IMHO, the best solution. Rock solid and built to take the abuse of wheeling with bigger tires. I chose it over the calmini and was glad I did. Prior, I had the HD TRAs and an idler arm brace. What that gained for me is extra strength there so it would be my centerlink that failed...Like prior post said, you can do it piecemeal, but in the end if you want it to be better able to withstand the abuse, you're going to end up replacing it all anyway. might as well go with a system designed to work together. Or pull it apart and beef it up yourself, if you've got the fab chops. I did not.

Agreed. Even if you piece it together, you still still have to address every part on the system to make it reliable. Might get a kit if you have the money all at once. I do like the Total Chaos kit the best though. Did you have to run the heim tie rods with it? How much did it cost all together? Only reason I like the Calimini kit is that I can still use tie rod ends and adjusters, which I have already spent $300+ on between trail spares and broken parts. With heims having street legal questions, I like keeping the HD TRA and tie rod ends and just addressing the center link and arms.

Anyway, like I mentioned, I just went with modifying the arms and center link since I already had gone too far with piece meal that I didn't want to have left over parts that I couldn't use. You definitely have options.
 

01XterraPhilly

First Fill-Up (of many)
Location
Conshohocken, PA
In delaware where my X is registered im fairly confident they dont give a dang about the heim ends. Their inspection is easy, its a drive through. i cant honestly say they've ever taken the time to care. but anyway, right now all i have is stock everything and a calmini IAB. I know the reputation is huge for centerlink but from what Ive heard is that they are unserviceable. Its a b**ch to clean out and you cant replace anything. Again, just what Ive heard. Plus they are crazy expensive and I couldnt afford them.
 

robcarync

Sliders
Location
Raleigh, NC
In delaware where my X is registered im fairly confident they dont give a dang about the heim ends. Their inspection is easy, its a drive through. i cant honestly say they've ever taken the time to care. but anyway, right now all i have is stock everything and a calmini IAB. I know the reputation is huge for centerlink but from what Ive heard is that they are unserviceable. Its a b**ch to clean out and you cant replace anything. Again, just what Ive heard. Plus they are crazy expensive and I couldnt afford them.


The stock style center link is not serviceable...meaning you can't replace the ball joints individually. However, as mentioned, the stock centerlink design is garbage. Even if you could, I would not suggest servicing the stock center link. I tried to avoid a new steering set up by replacing my OEM center link with a stock style MOOG. I quickly learned that even a fresh new center link didn't help.

The issue is not that the stock center link wears out quickly...but more so that the stock style center link design is not capable of handling larger tires and off roading. It is a design problem and not so much a durability and length of life problem...so servicing them with new ball joints wouldn't help anyway.

Steering kits are crazy expensive...yes. But so is buying new tires 20k miles sooner because you can't hold an alignment. It really is one of those things...pay up front to fix it right now, or skimp on it and pay later. I am speaking from experience...I didn't see the value of a full steering system and ended up replacing parts and collecting trail spares (purchased 3 sets of HD TRA, Idler arm Brace, bushings, 2 center links, idler and pitman arm, etc). I could have already paid for a steering set up...not to mention my tires are all worn unevenly due to alignment issues. No way was I going to drop some coin on new tires and have them get chewed up again.
 

Editor X

Test Drive
Location
Holly Srings, NC
Just call the shop and talk to Patrick. You can get it directly from there. FWIW, My X just rolled over 200k. The steering was installed with 35k on the truck. Rebuilt it three times but that's expected. New heim joints, new IA bushings and new pitman joint. Easy to do, but a must as these are wearable parts.
 

metzican

Suspension Lift
Location
Lafaytte, la
Wow, what a interesting read. I new first gens had steering issues. I did not know it was to this extent. It just like it is a necessary evil to upgrade.
 

01XterraPhilly

First Fill-Up (of many)
Location
Conshohocken, PA
im glad i could open up this can of worms and learn something from it. Once my misfortune of not being able to find a job turns im definitely looking to upgrade the tie rods. I also have a feeling that soon like in the next year ill need/want new tires. but we'll see how everything pans out
 

TJTJ

Skid Plates
Founding Member
Location
NJ
im glad i could open up this can of worms and learn something from it. Once my misfortune of not being able to find a job turns im definitely looking to upgrade the tie rods. I also have a feeling that soon like in the next year ill need/want new tires. but we'll see how everything pans out

The TRA are what bends/breaks.

5639382680_15e54d72ff_b.jpg


The upper pic is an OEM style adjuster (The part in the middle).

The lower is of a beefier upgraded TRA.

Here is another version of an upgraded TRA:


5063472131_802e8090c1_o.jpg


And so forth.
 

TJTJ

Skid Plates
Founding Member
Location
NJ
So with it being an upgrade that means the tra is thicker?

Pretty much. Better steel is nice too, etc.

The bending forces are in the middle of the link, at the adjuster, so, the better the adjuster can resist that force, the less likely it is to deform/snap.


I found some pics from a trip to RC back in 2010, where a trail break happened:

5232805579_b7f4180fab_b.jpg


5233401088_97e8129390_b.jpg



As you can see above, its a stress failure....at the adjuster. You can see it bent first, then snapped.

When this happens, you lose the steering on that side....which is often a bad thing....as it will then point where ever the path of least resistance points it. IE: Steering wheel is hard right, and the one tire is going left, etc.

:tunes:
 

Intender

Wheeling
Location
Lewisville NC
Rob with the calmini kit you have to use their adjusters. They are longer than the hd and stock ones. They only work with their kit as well. If you try to use them with stock setup they will be too long and your hd adjusters will be too short for the calmini kit.
 
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