Gen2 Revolver Shackles On Gen1 For More Lift?

[Nd4SpdSe]

I read somewhere that using the revolver shackles from an 05+ Xterra on an 00-04 will yeild more lift since they're apparently a tad longer. Does anyone have any more information in regards to this?

 

[Frogstar7055]

Being as they way 1st and 2nd's mount different I wouldn't think so.

 

[Prime]

To my knowledge, the frame width and spring width are different. So it probably wouldn't even bolt up.

However, it's my understanding that the revolvers yield more static lift than the standard lift shackles.

 

[robcarync]

4x4parts.com says 2" of lift.

I know TJTJ and some others had said it only gives you about 0.75" of lift.

Not sure myself since I never tried them...

 

[Intender]

I got just about an inch out of my revolvers vs stock shackles.

 

[Nd4SpdSe]

I will admit, I always had the impression that most leaf springs were a standard width.

My Frontier needs a bit more for suspension lift, but also the front leaf mount needs to move down, but I want to put on Revolvers as well, but i don't want to have to move the rear hanger down if I don't have to, but I need to get the revolvers so I know where she sits to know how much more lift I need, I just would of went with the Gen2's if it would of worked to give me a tad more lift. Is it (correction)spring over so I can technically put blocks underneath to cheat...

 

[metzican]

As far as I know there are no revolvers for 2nd gen... They make them for 1st gens.

I thought the spring widths where the same but the frame width is different or at least how the leaf spring lines up with the vehicle frame is different. I recall someone combining 1st and 2nd gen leafs or using 2nd gen on a first gen or something like that.

 

[Prime]

That might be the case. If you look at the standard shackle design, the 1st Gen is wider at the top and narrow at the bottom but they're symmetrical. The 2nd gen has the same general idea but is asymmetrical with the springs completely to one side of the shackle.

 

[Prime]

Is it spring under so I can technically put blocks underneath to cheat...

Might want to check that. Spring under would make lift blocks lower it. Through most Frontiers I've seen are spring over. Which would allow you to use lift blocks. But.... Then you'd be using lift blocks.....

 

[TheFauxFox]

Might want to check that. Spring under would make lift blocks lower it. Through most Frontiers I've seen are spring over. Which would allow you to use lift blocks. But.... Then you'd be using lift blocks.....

2x. I figured this was for your trailer build. By now, you know that Frontiers are spring-over (SOA) where lift blocks would work if you only wanted to match height. I don't know if thats a no-no for trailers though.

Also, 2x metzican. I have yet to see a set of gen 2 revolvers.

 

[robcarync]

http://www.4x4parts.com/i-18919967-xterra-revolver-shackles.html

 

[TheFauxFox]

nice find.

 

[Nd4SpdSe]

Might want to check that. Spring under would make lift blocks lower it. Through most Frontiers I've seen are spring over. Which would allow you to use lift blocks. But.... Then you'd be using lift blocks.....

Indeed, that's what I meant to say :S I don't know why I said under instead of over, but I wouldn't of mentioned lift blocks otherwise.

But indeed, I've read that people dont generally like lift blocks, so I was trying to avoid going that route, but since that axle doesn't have a driveline attached to it, so there's no torque to twist the rear end. I'm not sure, I've honestly never looked into the blocks before, but doing a quick read, apparently the problem is the forces during braking, really not an issue, until the trailer had working brakes, but the big problem is that it severaly affects axle wrap, which wouldn't exist since it's not driven. Not I'll probably do that route just to tweak to level it with the X, like an extra inch if i need it.

I'll have to measure the distance of the upper and lower bolt for the rear shackle on the Frontier at rest (she's parked at the mother-in-laws), and compare that to my Xterra's revolvers and see if I'll gain or lose using (gen1) revolvers. She currently has a set of adjustable shackles, but not all the way down.

 

[TJTJ]

Yeah, they fold up when not drooping, and act like regular shackles, with normal eye to eye lengths.


AC seems to use SEVERAL lengths though, just as they seem to with the regular lift shackles, etc...

As you can see, the eye to eye distance, on this set, is ~ 4"

The OEM shackle is ~ 3" eye to eye....so, its one inch longer than a stock shackle, and, would therefore give ~ 1/2" of lift over stock.

As you can see on THIS set, the eye to eye distance is closer to ~ 3 1/4", and would give essentially zero lift over stock.

THIS set doesn't have a measuring tape next to it, but, it was measured at ~ 4.5", which would give ~ 0.75" of lift over stock.


So, I think lately, you get closer to the 0.75" of lift, but AC's stuffs ACTUAL lift amount seems to be a crap shoot.


If you think about AC's ad that says it gives 2" of lift...and that it would need to be ~ 7" long, when folded, to do that, it is quickly apparent that the 2" claim is wrong, by a huge amount.


I hope that clears up some of the misconceptions about the amount of lift Revolvers give on a Gen 1.

This is what the GEN 2 Revolvers look like.

Notice its got a boomerang bend to help clearance with the somewhat different 2nd Gen layout, etc.

I have yet to see a 2nd Gen version in person, so I could measure the eye to eye distances at ride height...but, I seriously doubt that they are ~ 4" longer than the 3.5" OEM shackles either. (2nd Gen OEM shackles are 3.5" instead of 3" for the 1st gen's...)

As that would make them ~ 7.5" when folded....way off from what you'd expect to see.

 

[metzican]

If your talking about the trailer. Go lift blocks. As long as your talking no more then 2". Lift blocks are kinda like a body lift. As long as it is done in moderation it is no big deal. It is when people do 4-6" blocks you start going why.

 

[TJTJ]

If your talking about the trailer. Go lift blocks. As long as your talking no more then 2". Lift blocks are kinda like a body lift. As long as it is done in moderation it is no big deal. It is when people do 4-6" blocks you start going why.

Good point. As long as its too hard to kick them out under stress, they work OK. Sweating the details on your U-bolt/mounts for them to make them as stable as possible is worth it. 2" is not THAT much leverage, and, as mentioned, is a reasonable limit.

 

[robcarync]

TJTJ...looks like the revolvers have a plastic block that it locks into when sitting folded. Seems like that piece of plastic can determine the amount of lift from the revolvers. Have you noticed any wear on that piece, or sagging in the shackle as far as the closed position?

 

[TJTJ]

TJTJ...looks like the revolvers have a plastic block that it locks into when sitting folded. Seems like that piece of plastic can determine the amount of lift from the revolvers. Have you noticed any wear on that piece, or sagging in the shackle as far as the closed position?

Its the same type of stuff you see on a tire swing, etc, its Delrin or something like that?

I know that they DO wear over time. You can replace them, and, conversely, that does mean its at least possible to shim whatever thickness you want there.


Its a block with a gulley to capture the shaft, so it seats when folded.

You can see it pretty well here....the white part with the semicircular groove. A set of allen bolts hold them in.


Mine took quite a beating, but were OK.

I know at least one guy who had one crack though...but, again, you just bolt a new one in. W/o that block, you are at ~ stock height...so, not much of a drop, and, on the road, you don't notice a difference. OFF road, the cracked one was noisier because there was metal to metal clanking on compression.

So he wheeled ~ 3 days like that, and fixed it later.


So, yeah, I guess you COULD shim it (Or use a larger block) and increase the rear ride height a bit...not a bad idea if you need the height. I never tried though, as I had doubled AAL on there as it was.




They replaced my old Calmini shackles...and, well, a HUGE improvement.

Not my set, but, pretty much the same thing.

 

[metzican]

It is for your trailer... trailers don't flex with just 1 axle the axle just bounces. I don't get why you would spend that type of money for something that will never drop for its purpose. Trailers articulate around the coupler. I'm not saying Revolvers work or don't. But the whole argument behind them is to drop a tire on the group that is a driven tire. That be like putting revolver on a front axle with a 2x4 vehicle. there is not difference if that wheel is in the air or lightly put on the ground. For lifting a trailer go with the cheapest simplest way. Also the lowest point on any trailer is the axle. And you have a pumpkin. That will hit before anything else.

 

[Nd4SpdSe]

Sorry guys, I didn't want it to turn into a trailer discussion (thread here if you wish to discuss: http://www.xterranation.org/showthr...-Expedition-Trailer-quot-The-Frontrailer-quot ), but I thought that if what I had read was true, it could of been useful information for anyone. I honestly was contemplating to put the gen2's on the X and move my revolvers to the trailer. I will say there's a great amout of information that's been posted, nice and thanks! And I'm happy that it's been cleared up that it's not possible nor advantageous.


I know what you mean metzican. In the end, I'm trying to improve on a trailers off-road manners. I find their suspension does nothing, that they just basically lumber over the obstacles...

And with them being top-heavy (no drivetrain to keep the weight lower compared to the vehicle) especially with an RTT, I just want to improve it's trail-manners, trying to have a suspension setup so that she rides more level while crawling, to avoid situations like this

 

[TJTJ]

For the trailer, you could try regular lift shackles, just to get some more leaf flex, but, now you are going to need to add a way to control sway, such as shocks....and its down the rabbit hole.



The most productive area for improvement is typically learning how to drive with a trailer so as to avoid flipping it.

IE: When most people start wheeling, they (And new spotters) tend to only spot the front tires when they pick a line...and the rear ends get hung up, etc.

As they gain experience, they start to take where the butt will end up into account too...and pick lines that take the butt into account.

...and, the next to master after that, is, where the TRAILER will end up in the line you picked.

 

[Nd4SpdSe]

Honestly, you're probably on the right track. The trailer will get shocks, a set of Bilstein 5100's (and not ****ty some ****ty Rancho 9000's), but I've learned to just to stuff one step at a time, especially when you need to get others to do the (fab) work for you, cause they're bound to not get it right or as you want it. The shocks will get done, inboard style. once the suspension is sorted out, which ironically isn't priority. The only planned time il'll be giving her a test-run on the trails is Labour Day weekend in September, so a ways off. Right now I'm trying to get her camping-ready to use this year rather than being trail-ready for the end of the summer...March was an expensive month, I'll be slacking on the large projects for a bit. Your probably right tho. I'll probably stick with the shackles that are on there now; there's probably no difference in ride height compared to the revolvers. I'll have to measure then, but there is one more notch left on the shackle if I want to bring her up a tad more. I'll probably remove the overload leaf and get a military-wrap leaf done like on the X. It's a setup that works well as handling heavy loads, but still gives me plenty of flex and tuck.

Metican did make me rethink about it, and wondering if revolvers on a trailer would be a bad thing, giving too much slack on top on angled maneuvres and cause it more likely to top over, or maybe it would help against it giving more slack to keep the axle lower and weight down low. Hard to say, but considering I don't think it'll make a difference in ride height, I'll wait out on that part...

 

[TJTJ]

I have not found that its more tippy with revolvers, because I've found that the COG doesn't really care what shackles I have.

I have a set of measurements I do to FIND my COG. After I know it, I just have to imagine an imaginary plumb bob dropped down from it to the ground below.

If the rectangle formed by my 4 tires contains that bob, I will not tip. If the bob is outside that rectangle, I will tip.


After that I look at my roll center...essentially, if I push on the rig like I want to knock it over...what is the height the rig is PIVOTING at?

The suspension is what dictates my roll center....and, typically, its well below the shackles.


The reader's digest version is that the shackles are not what "holds the rig to the ground"...and the rig won't float off into space if you for example severed the shackles, etc.

This is analogous to a coil sprung rig not needing the COILS to "hold it down"....etc.


As soon as you realize that the coils, etc, are not magically pulling the rig down to keep it from tipping, etc...you realize that the length of the shackle, etc, is not making you tippy, but, the suspension's ride height, which raises your COG, DEFINITELY can make you more tippy as your COG is raised.

A suspension being EXTENDED during articulation is not raising your COG, as the axle drooping DOWN further is not raising you.

And so forth.